Do you think Xena would've been an icon without the subtext?
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Xena's iconic status
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 toxic64 |
Xena's iconic status |
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Lost Mariner
Posts: 1570 (05/30/09 10:30 PM) |
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athena95us |
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TX New Member
Posts: 10 (05/30/09 10:58 PM) |
What drew me to the show wasn't so much the subtext but the chemistry between Lucy and Renee as they portrayed Xena and Gabrielle. I think the show has
legions of fans because of that chemistry and the fact that they were two strong women on their own and doing their own thing. That on it's own makes Xena
iconic.
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MoonDog |
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Posts: 513 (05/30/09 11:27 PM) TX Administrator |
Yes...I thought she was an icon before the Subtext kicked into high gear...
The subtext just made her a bigger icon... 
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toxic64 |
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Lost Mariner
Posts: 1571 (05/30/09 11:55 PM) |
MoonDog wrote: The subtext kicked into high gear in S2. You really thought Xena was an icon that early in the game? |
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Uber Xe |
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Posts: 6156 (05/31/09 11:02 AM) TX Moderator |
She has icon status because of her toughness, but she wouldn't have become as well known without the subtext, and you don't become an icon if
you're not well-known. So the subtext itself wasn't needed to make her icon material, but it was needed to make her famous enough to become an icon.
Uber Xe 
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misslane |
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Intimate Stranger
Posts: 95 (05/31/09 11:28 AM)
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without her gabrielle, no xena iconic status hehehhe
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TheJollyApe |
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Dreamworker
Posts: 307 (06/01/09 03:58 AM) |
Oh, good question. It's hard to tell though, cause the subtext is so heavily ingrained in both the character and the show, that it's hard to imagine
her without it. By having her only relying on another female you helped further that kick ass notion of feminist power and if the subtext would have been
removed it is quite possibly a male love interest would have been introduced and the show taken on a more "normal" feel.
Yeah, no I have no idea to be honest. 
"I fly, it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." The Oddballs // The Chronicles of Ape // Subtle.Subtle.Subtle // The Great Re-Watch |
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xenawp7706 |
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Immortal
Posts: 7888 (06/01/09 05:48 AM) Italian IX Hostess |
Xena is an icon for more than the subtext I think.
It is what she represented and still represent for women(and men). An independent woman that can do whatever she wants, without relating on a man. For me Xena is an icon because she taught me to stand up for what I believe, to fight for a good cause, and to help others in need. 
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Batrochides |
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Xenite
Posts: 11130 (06/01/09 06:00 PM) |
This should be best considered on the basis of whether Xena's iconic status waas achieved through her perceived relationship with Gabrielle, or because she was a beautiful woman who kicked hinder wholesale. I note that practically every popular reference to Xena by non-Xenites is slanted to the "warrior princess" aspect, and that those non-Xenites are
at best dimly aware of Gabrielle's existence even as a sidekick, much less having an inkling of her relationship with Xena (or even her name!).
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TheJollyApe |
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Dreamworker
Posts: 311 (06/02/09 01:16 AM) |
Batrochides wrote:Yes, but you also have to wonder whether or not Gabrielle and the subtext did not influence the way the character was played and developed, and thus the impact she had on pop-culture. This feels very egg-chicken, chicken-egg. 
"I fly, it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." The Oddballs // The Chronicles of Ape // Subtle.Subtle.Subtle // The Great Re-Watch |
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Batrochides |
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Xenite
Posts: 11131 (06/02/09 03:58 AM) |
My dear TheJollyApe, hello!
The question was, I believe, focused on Xena as an "icon" in the collective mind of the general population or even the creators of mass media, rather than the more restricted realms of Xenites themselves or the LGBT community (who would care about the subtext/maintext if nothing else about the show). If pop culture barely recognizes Gabrielle's very existence, then subtext's contribution to Xena's iconic status in the popular mind must be quite limited. Best wishes. Batrochides
Last Edited By: Batrochides
06/02/09 04:01 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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Gabsfan |
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Posts: 9661 (06/02/09 04:29 AM) TX Moderator |
Batrochides wrote: ACK!  Why don't ya just jab that dagger into my heart and twist it, Bat! 
While many only reference Xena, I have seen and heard references to Xena & Gabrielle in popular culture. I think the main reason why many non-Xenites only reference Xena is because that is the way the show was marketed and publicized by Universal/Studios USA. They pushed Xena, not Gabrielle, thus also ignoring the subtext. However, media including shows like Entertainment Tonight, did acknowledge Gabrielle and the subtext. TV shows like Will & Grace also referenced Xena & Gabrielle at least once, possibly twice, I can't remember now. I agree with UX that while Xena's character was definitely iconic material, she would not reach iconic status if nobody knew who she was. And I believe it was the subtext that put the TV show and thus, Xena herself on the map. The subtext, especially in the second season, brought the show to the mainstream media's attention so even thoose that didn't watch the show, learned who Xena was. Plus, if it were not for the subtext bringing the show to the attention of the mainstream media and attracting more TV viewers, I don't think the show would have lasted 6 seasons. A character only on TV for one or two seasons does not become an icon. And the subtext would not have been so believeable, heart-warming and intriguing without the magical chemistry between Lucy & Renee as X&G. 
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Uber Xe |
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Posts: 6170 (06/02/09 10:02 AM) TX Moderator |
And I believe it was the subtext that put the TV show and thus, Xena herself on the map. The subtext, especially in the second season, brought the show to the mainstream media's attention so even thoose that didn't watch the show, learned who Xena was.I think it was Lucy's horseback riding accident on the Leno show that really brought the show into people's consciousness. Suddenly the show was mentioned on late night TV and ET and all that, and this happened at a time when the subtext was becoming an integral part of the show, and lesbian subtext wasn't something you saw on TV every day at that time, so this combo really brought the show into the spotlight. I 100% believe there would not have been any subtext without Lucy and Renee. It wasn't planned, it wasn't written, it wasn't anyone's idea. It was the way these two actresses connected while playing these two characters that made the characters fall in love, and tptb went with it (mostly). It was magic--characters don't tend to fall in love one their own on TV shows! Uber Xe
Edited because I posted it by accident in the middle of a sentence.
Last Edited By: Uber Xe
06/02/09 10:04 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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dspoon |
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Intimate Stranger
Posts: 61 (06/02/09 11:09 AM) |
For some it might be subtext but for me I just like the action and mythology.
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stutz788 |
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Dreamworker
Posts: 331 (06/02/09 03:49 PM) |
I cannot comment on X:WP's "iconic" status; I only know that the show started a whole "slew" of similar shows that depicted strong independent female characters that didn't require a "male hero" to "rescue" the "Girlfriend of the week" from deadly peril every episode (in fact, the "Boyfriend of the Week" was in deadly peril in the first season or two. <vbegi>) and is still the "Genesis" of such modern programming. If "iconic" status means that other shows followed your premise and that your show got syndicated in hundreds of Countries and garners new fans eight years after the final episode was first aired, still attracts fans to conventions every year, can inspire fans to raise millions of Dollars for charity, can inspire the fans to follow and support the career's of the major and minor cast members....... Can continue to support the family of a dear departed star of the show....... And many more things!!!!! Is X:WP "iconic" to the general (poor unknowing) public, I don't know, I only know that its iconic to me. |
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chakroc |
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Warlord
Posts: 723 (06/02/09 08:43 PM) |
For me it depends on how you define an icon. Personally, I'm not sure I'd consider Xena an iconic character. I know many folks who were never really
fans of the show, but recognize the name, but they certainly don't consider the character an 'icon'.
For me, when I think of iconic character, I think of Darth Vader or Captain Kirk or Mr. Spock or Batman, etc. These are characters that virtually everyone recognizes, whether they were fans or not and realize they're place in pop culture. I put Xena in the same boat as Kevin Sorbo's Hercules or Buffy, etc..... characters that had their place and time, but that's about it. Personally, I felt if everyone saw Xena as an iconic character, we would still the shows DVD's on store shelves and we wouldn't have seen the studios so hesitant to at least a TV or striaght to DVD movie featuring the character. Now I can see why the die hard Xenites see the character as an iconic character, and most of the reason for that IMO is because of the subtext element of the show. I feel the reason we still have conventions is because of the subtext. So I'm not really sure how to answer the question. IMO, the fans that do see Xena as an iconic character, do so mostly because of the subtext element that was added to the show to make it what it was. On the other hand, the folks who aren't really big fans of the show, who may not know who Gabrielle even is.....I don't feel those folks really see Xena as an icon; I think they simply see her as the star of another campy action show that is no more. And folks may say, well anyone who isn't a fan of something won't see the character as an icon.......but I could never stand Star Trek, yet I obviously saw the iconic status of the show and it's characters. Tony |
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xenawp7706 |
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Immortal
Posts: 7903 (06/03/09 07:41 AM) Italian IX Hostess |
Oh I see. So you talk about Xena as a lesbian icon? Then yes, the subtext did a lot about that!
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TheJollyApe |
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Dreamworker
Posts: 322 (06/03/09 11:14 AM) |
chakroc wrote:That's actually a good point. And a lot of the people who recognise the name and who would even go as far as calling Xena an icon seldom know the character. Okay, this just sounds confusing, but people know of of Xena and her outfit has become part of pop-culture. And I think that perhaps that image of Xena that has a somewhat iconic status in mainstream culture is quite far removed from the actual character of Xena. And then you have to ask if it's just the shell of the character that is icon, is then really the actual character iconic? Yeah, that was indeed confusing, but...
"I fly, it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." The Oddballs // The Chronicles of Ape // Subtle.Subtle.Subtle // The Great Re-Watch |
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dspoon |
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Intimate Stranger
Posts: 100 (07/09/09 08:34 PM) |
The show was amazing but without the subtext it wouldn't be as big as it is.
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